A Note To Our Followers

Two minor updates were rolled out today, so we figured we’d let you know.

First, we’ve made some updates and changes to our ad placement, which is obviously an ongoing project.  We’d love to get some feedback from our readers on the changes and the ads in general.  More annoying?  Less annoying?  About the same?  Don’t even see them because you use AdBlock?  (No, we don’t blame you, though we’re just doing it to pay for the cost of domain registration and hosting, which if we’re lucky might break even.)  Yes, we know ads suck, and we know that these ads suck in particular (we’re working to find a better provider, but we simply don’t generate that much traffic which means pretty limited options), but our objective is to make them as unobtrusive and un-annoying as possible.  This is why, for example, we’ve ditched three ad providers so far because they insisted on popups, popunders, sliders, ads which play sound without asking you and other generally similar crap that we know everyone hates, even though they would probably make our lives a lot easier.  (At least for now, we’re also not using top-mounted banner ads.)

Thus, we welcome feedback and suggestions.  If you find something particularly annoying, we’ll see what we can do.  If you can think of something that might work better, let us know.  Most importantly, if you know of a decent ad provider for relatively low-traffic sites that’s not AdSense (they don’t like us because discussions of triggery things are generally not “family-friendly”, and their system is awful anyways) we’d love to hear about it.

Second, if you’ve copypasta’d text from PoN recently you may have noticed that it came with a rather annoying “read more at *URL*” attached.  Because we often copy text from drafts into Skype when proofing, we weren’t too pleased with it either.  One of our admins finally had some spare time and tracked the problem down to a ShareThis analytics plugin in our theme.  Needless to say, we’re no longer using ShareThis.  While we use various analytics in general to get an idea of what’s going on on PoN (how many people are visiting, what posts get the most hits, where visitors are coming from, etc.) messing around with your clipboard is just a dick move.

We’re always looking to improve the look and feel of our blog for our followers.  If you have any further suggestions, please contact us.

y spammusubivendingmachine:

Can we talk about this post?
Yes. This is problematic.

Indeed it is.  We’re talking about yours, though, not the picture.[[MORE]]

But this is also sexism. Not “sexism against males,” but sexism. against females. backfiring.

Reframing the issue, and, in many cases, untrue.

Emotions are seen as a “weakness” in males because females are associated with being (over)emotional 

Care to substantiate this claim?  A more reasonable suggestion would be that emotion is associated with weakness, but that weakness is more tolerated in women than men.  Additionally, what does this have to do with the fact that this is discrimination against men?

Admitting weakness is “bad” because females are associated with being weak (in more than one way, too)

Care to substantiate this claim?  For the most part, weakness is tolerated (and even venerated, see “delicate” and its connotations) in women despite being despised in men.  Additionally, what does this have to do with the fact that this is discrimination against men?

Sexually harassing a woman isn’t “expressing your sexuality,” it’s harrassment

But not every instance of expressing one’s sexuality is sexual harassment, and that’s what this point was about.  You’re strawmanning.

Losing to a woman in physical competition makes men seem “inferior” because women are incorrectly seen as physically weaker by default

This may be true, but how does this in any way mean that it’s just sexism “backfiring”?  Who’s actually getting hurt here?  Additionally, women are physically weaker on average, if Olympic records have anything to say about it.
People having low expectations of you is bad, but people having overly high expectations is bad as well.  Not everything is about women.

Women being more superficial is more socially “acceptable” because women are harmfully stereotyped to be simple, superficial creatures. Society usually views males being superficial as acceptable; feminists just call that out. Neither sex benefits from any of this.

This is one of the weaker points of the original list because it’s by nature subjective; neither it nor your response are particularly defensible.  Mind explaining how exactly women being stereotyped to be a certain way inherently conveys acceptance on them behaving in such a fashion?  Remember, plenty of feminists stereotype men as sexist rapist child-murderers, but nobody would suggest that means they consider such behavior “acceptable” from men.
It must be noted, however, that neither sex benefiting from something doesn’t mean that neither sex is hurt.  Sexism is not a zero-sum game.

Makeup is “bad” because it’s feminine and being feminine (aka being like women) is seen as a bad thing because women are seen as a bad thing

In other words, society loves incredibly butch, bearded women, right?  Oh, wait, society doesn’t like that at all.
It’s not femininity that’s hated, it’s subversion of gender roles.  Say it with us, “masculine men are loved by society, feminine women are loved by society, everyone else is told to go fuck themselves.”  This is a problem, and we need to solve it, but your trite and inaccurate generalizations are only compounding the problem.

There’s an insanely unrealistic ideal of manhood because the idea is so heavily focused on not being a woman, therefore avoiding traits stereotypically attributed to women

How could you ever defend this statement?  We don’t even have to say anything, just kind of stand here and watch it implode under its own inaccuracy.

Being gay is seen as weak because gay men are stereotyped as being feminine, which is incorrectly equated to being “weak”

This one isn’t much better than the one before.  Also, it’s pretty homophobic.  Here’s your “failing miserably at intersectionality” medal.  Incidentally, the resident bisexual male here at PoN can’t help but point out that you’re full of shit.

Penis length is made such a big deal of because women are stereotyped as being superficial and caring about that and nothing else

Do you have any evidence whatsoever to support this?  Seriously, we don’t even know where you go that from.

Males have a harder time reporting sexual assaults because women are seen as too weak to have done any “real” damage and “manhood” is obsessed with not being feminine and femininity is falsely equated to weakness

Reframing the issue.  Badly.

There are no male-specific support movements because men are not oppressed and society is biased towards men and against women by default

You’re currently reading a list of institutional discrimination against men.  We have another.  How can you believe that men are not oppressed and society is biased against women by default when basically every bit of relevant statistical evidence says that the opposite is true?

There are unequal parent rights because women are seen as “natural caretakers” and a man seeming like a woman is seen as a bad thing

Or it could be that men are simply seen as bad caretakers.  Not everything is about women and femininity.

Women are seen as less than human by our society. Treating you like you’re not infallible is not treating you as less than human.

This has nothing to do with the point listed.  Extreme feminists (and even many supposed “moderates”) treat men as less than human.  Have you really never heard of Dworkin or Solanas.  Accept that they’re flawed, and stop erasing victims.

Many sexist acts are blamed on women by our society (aka, rape culture.) Many of the things men blame women for are, like, this post, a result of the oppression of women.

This really doesn’t have anything to do with the original point.
Furthermore, do you really think rape culture is a women’s issue rather than a human one?  Congratulations on erasing all male victims and being a part of rape culture.  Congratulations on dismissing the problems of men and being a perfect example of the next point on the list.

Nobody has a perfect life. Ever. But problems like the ones listed here are, ironically, caused by society being biased towards you.
Still want to say I didn’t read it past the title?

We’re impressed that you managed to read past the title, but we’re less than impressed with the veracity of your claims.  Try to empathize a bit more with others and think about what you’re saying before you spew it all over the internet.

spammusubivendingmachine:

Can we talk about this post?

Yes. This is problematic.

Indeed it is.  We’re talking about yours, though, not the picture.

Read More

y brazenautomaton:

permutationofninjas:

newsspeak:

“Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of contempt for women’s bodies.”
“Only when manhood is dead — and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it — only then will we know what it is to be free”
“Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.” 
“Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman.”“Hatred of women is a source of sexual pleasure for men in its own right.” 
-Andrea Dworkin… …Is not someone I care to hear from on any topic.

This is just a big ad hominem; you’re attacking a message because of the messenger, and not because of the flaws of the message.  This is wrong.  Would you presume simply because she said the world was round that it’s actually flat?  Her general horribleness, and her consistent wrongness on a staggering variety of topics does not prove her wrong in every case.
Obviously, Dworkin was flawed, but it’s important to not fall into fallacy.  Instead, point out the actual flaws of the statement in question.  Talk about feminism’s constant failings of intersectionality and inclusiveness; its consistent bigotry towards men, transgender people and others; its academic dishonesty, lies and deceit.  Don’t sink to their level.

I don’t think this is really ad hominem. The quote is presented as being worthy of recognition because Andrea Dworkin, Smart Person, said it. It’s just an assertion, there’s no argument or evidence, we are to see that it is true because it was said by a respected person. If this is the case, providing evidence that Andrea Dworkin was a toxic, paranoid, delusional misandrist and therefore not deserving of respect, is a relevant counterargument.

This is an interesting argument.
From what we’ve seen, the attribution is far less important to rebloggers than the actual quote, but we may be mistaken.
What do other followers think?

brazenautomaton:

permutationofninjas:

newsspeak:

“Intercourse is the pure, sterile, formal expression of contempt for women’s bodies.”

“Only when manhood is dead — and it will perish when ravaged femininity no longer sustains it — only then will we know what it is to be free”

“Romantic love, in pornography as in life, is the mythic celebration of female negation. For a woman, love is defined as her willingness to submit to her own annihilation.” 

“Under patriarchy, every woman’s son is her potential betrayer and also the inevitable rapist or exploiter of another woman.”

“Hatred of women is a source of sexual pleasure for men in its own right.” 

-Andrea Dworkin… …Is not someone I care to hear from on any topic.

This is just a big ad hominem; you’re attacking a message because of the messenger, and not because of the flaws of the message.  This is wrong.  Would you presume simply because she said the world was round that it’s actually flat?  Her general horribleness, and her consistent wrongness on a staggering variety of topics does not prove her wrong in every case.

Obviously, Dworkin was flawed, but it’s important to not fall into fallacy.  Instead, point out the actual flaws of the statement in question.  Talk about feminism’s constant failings of intersectionality and inclusiveness; its consistent bigotry towards men, transgender people and others; its academic dishonesty, lies and deceit.  Don’t sink to their level.

I don’t think this is really ad hominem. The quote is presented as being worthy of recognition because Andrea Dworkin, Smart Person, said it. It’s just an assertion, there’s no argument or evidence, we are to see that it is true because it was said by a respected person. If this is the case, providing evidence that Andrea Dworkin was a toxic, paranoid, delusional misandrist and therefore not deserving of respect, is a relevant counterargument.

This is an interesting argument.

From what we’ve seen, the attribution is far less important to rebloggers than the actual quote, but we may be mistaken.

What do other followers think?

lucyliuscheekbones:

permutationofninjas:

lucyliuscheekbones:

(snipped)

its really interesting that men complain about having to go to war when women do it, too. 

Women have the option to go to war.  Men have the obligation.  There’s a difference.  That is what MRAs have a problem with.

lucyliuscheekbones:

i heard the perfect description of MRAs yesterday

this kid was complaining about the being the youngest kid in his family

and everyone else there was the oldest and we were all “shut up the youngest is always so spoiled” and he said 

“yeah, but we get criticized for being spoiled”

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT MRAS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT

BEING CRITICIZED FOR HAVING PRIVILEGES

This is really rather interesting.  Do you want to know why?  Well, you probably don’t, but we’re going to tell you anyways.  This is basically a perfect description of “reframing the issue.”  What’s so interesting about that?  Well, mostly that a large portion of the feminist movement is devoted to doing precisely that.

“Men get conscripted and subjected to the horrors of war, and that’s a problem!”  ”Well, the real problem is that women are seen as (read: “criticized for being”) weak.”

We’re heard it about a thousand times, on almost as many issues.  We point out female privilege, yet supposedly the “real” problem is the fact that people’s acknowledgement or justification of that privilege paints women in a negative light.  How horrible.

Being privileged isn’t an inherently bad thing.  Not recognizing one’s privileges and failing to recognize when others don’t have said privileges are bad, but the simple act of having privilege is value-neutral.

Even if you were right, that’s not “EXACTLY WHAT MRAS ARE COMPLAINING ABOUT”; there are plenty of examples of institutional discrimination against men.

MRA Information Monday #1

of-blood-and-chocolate:

How wonderful!  It would be fantastic to see a feminist clear up some misconceptions surrounding the MHRM and MRAs, especially weekly!  We so often see feminists passing around second-hand innacurate information, and it would be so nice to see a feminist challenge those-

In these weekly posts I will be looking at MRM concerns and issues through a historical and a feminist lens.

Oh.  You’ll be viewing the MHRM through a feminist lens.  Well, that can’t be too bad; there are numerous MRAs who are also feminists (such as Just Smith) as well as feminists sympathetic to MRAs (such as some of our editors).

Historically, because I believe any understanding of a subject needs to be informed,

A fair assumption, although one must be aware that the historical form of a movement may not reflect its current form.  Feminism in its earlier forms advocated for a large number of things that feminists now would decry, yet that on its own doesn’t delegitimize feminism.  However, the hypocrisy of ignoring the successes of earlier forms of feminism and relabeling those as signs of patriarchy is.

and with feminism, because it is the unjustly declared (I believe) ‘enemy’ of the MRM, and I find that stance regressive, volatile, and problematic.

As can be noted from our examples above, not all MRAs consider the feminist movement their enemy.  From what we’ve seen most MRAs consider fourth wave and egalitarian feminists allies, only considering certain (all too present) subcategories of feminists opposition.

However, for those MRAs that do consider feminism their enemy, how can you blame them?  Mainstream feminism has done very little to help with the MHRM’s goals, while radical feminism has done quite a lot to silence them and spread false information about them.  Even rather neutral and well-intentioned feminists have passed around faulty feminist-sponsored “statistics” that not only harm the MHRM’s goals, but also men, women, and non-binaries, as well as a whole host of other people such as rape and domestic violence victims/survivors.  (One of our newer editors can attest to doing this when they considered themself a feminist, although they now regret it.)

We’re hoping you won’t be one of those, although a quick look around your “MRA” tag doesn’t give us high hopes.

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Feminism and MRA’s

knaveryabounds:

“There’s been a massive oil spill that has affected the sea life of an entire coastal region, we have to go help!”

“Wow, that sucks. I wonder if gas prices are going to go up.”

“Well, they might, but I think our time is better served focusing on fixing this massive problem that we created.”

“Just a moment, I need to call my broker and sell my Exxon stock before it falls too far to make a profit.”

“Are you serious? There is life out there suffering due to a long-standing societal need that has caused problems that we need to fix. The current state of the problem is bad enough, but if we don’t do anything right now, it’s going to get worse!”

“Well, maybe if you didn’t drive a Hummer, this wouldn’t have happened.”

“That’s not the point— look, I don’t have time to focus on your small personal problems when we have an ecological disaster on our hands that requires immediate attention for the safety and well-being of the life that we’ve affected.”

“Well that’s awfully selfish of you! Why do my problems suddenly not matter?”

“… Your problems matter. We’ll take care of your money issues, your pride issues, and even my Hummer when we, or I alone, fix the massive disaster we as a species have created that has negatively affected the world around us.”

“Damn it, you’re one of those fucking environmentalists, aren’t you? Don’t you know that there are problems that don’t deal with nature?”

“…I’m going to go now.”

Tagged: feminismmrmmrapoor metaphorbut you get the idea.

“Poor metaphor” hardly does it justice; what is this even supposed to mean?

You appear to be implying that solely men created the gender binary kyriarchy.  Not only is this unverifiable, it’s almost definitely untrue.  You also appear to imply that men don’t have any institutional problems.  This is is also untrue.

Other than that though, your metaphor basically gets lost in space after the first few sentences and only spirals outwards from there.  While it might be a nice commentary on environmentalists (that drive Hummers?) it’s so removed from the current state of gender equity issues in our culture that it says nothing useful, relevant or even moderately factual.

thefourthwavebegins:

permutationofninjas:

thefourthwavebegins:

Here’s All The Awful Things Feminism Hasn’t Caused. YET.

image

:)

It’s sometimes hard to tell whether your blog is supporting something or speaking against it; our-lady-of-misandry liking this post is a good example of that.  It’s probably safe to assume, though, that you’re supportive of the message of this image.

If that’s the case, you’d be wrong for two reasons.

First, feminism is guilty of many things, and has been actively harmful.  Of course each and every feminist isn’t guilty of this, but the movement as a whole is.  Just look at the idea that “95% of all rapists are male”, for example.  Look at the current state of rape laws in India.  Look at the current state of family courts or domestic abuse laws.  In all honesty, feminism has practiced a great deal of cruelty and done most of the others at least by proxy.

Second, people can choose not to identify as feminist.  Please don’t co-opt them into your crusade.  Feminism is a movement with an ideology and a goal: fighting for their idea of equality for women.  How successful it is, how intersectional it is, whether or not its ideology is based in any kind of evidence, all of these things are still very much up for debate.  There are many reasons a person might not want to identify with feminism, and plenty of those are entirely legitimate.  A person not being a feminist means that person doesn’t identify with the movement as it stands, no more, no less.

Admittedly, this picture was quite general and was posted to get people thinking more than anything else. Feminism is too diverse a movement to say whether it has been truly harmful or beneficial at this point. It’s why we wanted to change it for the better. The intent of feminism is ultimately positive and that is why we promote it and support it.

We totally agree with you that there are many reasons why one would not want to be a feminist at this point. Feminism’s name has been dragged through the mud many times over and the extreme feminists drive people away. We say people who promote positivity and equality but don’t identify as feminist are just as good as any person who is a feminist. There’s no problem with that. This post was very 2nd wavey which we apologize for but the overall message is still pretty good.

The overall message was pretty good?  What would that message be?

The post states that feminism has not done anything bad, when it clearly has.  This post implies that there’s something wrong with people who don’t identify as feminist, which we both know isn’t the case.

This post is obviously problematic.  What you claim it to be saying is indeed positive, but what it’s actually saying is far from it.

thefourthwavebegins:

permutationofninjas:

cartoonpolitics:

although, with at least 213,000 victims of sexual assault in the USA every year (more than 9/10ths female) ‘home’ might not be such a safe option either. The problem isn’t geography.

It’s good that you (perhaps?) note the racism of this political cartoon, but you are perpetuating yet another inaccurate rape statistic.

It’s important to understand that if you reblog something without commenting on it, you’re implicitly supporting it.  Please don’t support misinformation about rape; you’ve already apologized for it at least once, so you should really try to avoid it in the future.

I assumed it was reliable because they linked to RAINN and checked their source which was from the US Department of Justice. It is outdated from 2003 so I’m sure the data has changed since then but I doubt it is going to change that much in ten years. If someone uses a stat with a reliable source I’m going to go with it. If it ends up being inaccurate I’ll delete it. 

Interestingly, we actually use the same source as RAINN: the CDC NIPSVS.  We use it because it provides the most up-to-date, reliable and accurate numbers as far as data collection goes.

A quick look through the actual study, though, shows that forced envelopment isn’t counted as rape; when it is factored in, about 40% of all rapes are perpetrated by women.  It’s basically a definition issue, where the majority of male rape victimization was quietly hidden under another label.

RAINN doesn’t bother to consider this, leading to skewed statistics.  In fact, many statistics from RAINN have similar problems; their advocacy gives them a vested interest in exaggerating the problem, which may be exacerbated by a vested feminist ideology.

As an adult male that has been circumcised, I can honestly tell you that it'd be nicer to be uncut. I've actually noticed a great decrease in sensation and while it might look "nice" within society's standard of fallic beauty, it's not really worth the lack of feeling in most areas due to scar tissue and keratinization. — spyduck

You’re far from the first person to say so, though the people advocating circumcision always seem to ignore it.

A Letter to Men’s Rights Activists About Abuse

captainkittysticks:

permutationofninjas:

captainkittysticks:

You talk to me a lot about men who are abused. You tell me that I don’t care if men are abused (many times even after I tell you that I do). But here’s the thing. I want you to ask yourself a few questions.

People, including MRAs, tend to prefer evidence to claims.  Your general type tends to have an awful lot of the latter and very little of the former.

Read More

I would agree that it’s not productive to hang out with someone who is suicidal if you’re suicidal yourself. My main point was that if you are going to argue for something, then you should stand by it. Just as if I were to argue against bullying, I should generally stand up to a bully, or at least help that bullied person, you know?
I never said I assumed they wouldn’t. I was just saying, again, that you should stand up for what you believe in. For example, I couldn’t say I was pro-choice, then tell my daughter she wasn’t allowed to have an abortion. All I was saying was the you should practice what you preach.

But if someone who argued against bullying was immediately questioned on whether they’d help a bullied person, you’d understand why that’d be insulting, right?

That reblog of mine came from RAINN statistics about rape and abuse, which is a national organization dedicated to victims of sexual assault and abuse. The study was done a while ago, but I still thought it was worth reblogging. I also think it’s worth it to point out that it’s not gendered and includes male victims and VERY few of those victims report their crimes, so very few people who rape males are convicted. There are probably a lot more male victims that we know about (I’ll get to why I think that is in a moment.)

In our original response, we linked to an explanation of the problems with the RAINN infographic.  Do you disagree with it?  If so, please explain why.  If not, perhaps deleting your reblog would be a good idea.

Spreading misleading information about rape and conviction rates hurts not only the falsely accused but also actual rape victims, who may be discouraged from seeking legal help if they believe their case is hopeless.

As for MRAs, I don’t have a problem with them as long as they don’t blame women or feminism for men’s issues. Just as I have a problem with a feminist hating men, I have a problem with MRAs hating women. Hate has no place in a social movement, and hopefully you agree with that.
My view on sexism? Sexism is enforced by gender roles, and I think gender roles harm both men and women. Women are often blamed for their rapes because of the way they dressed, and that’s because of slut-shaming, which is caused by the idea that female body parts are sinful or immoral, caused by the “women should cover up” gender role. But men often get told they weren’t raped at all, because of the gender role that tells men they always want sex, so they couldn’t have possibly been raped.
Any time someone falls out of their gender role, if a woman is outspoken or if a man is softhearted, they are made fun of, criminalized, bullied, and a multitude of other things. In order to form a non-sexist society, we need to end gender roles. Which is not to say that men and women shouldn’t follow gender roles; they can if they want. It’s perfectly fine for the man to be the breadwinner and the woman to be the caretaker, but those roles shouldn’t be mandatory, and people who fall out of those roles shouldn’t be told there is something wrong with them.

These views are agreeable, and it’s good that you’re so gender-egalitarian.  However, that doesn’t absolve you from responsibility for your incredibly insulting original post.

worldfighter:

fuckingrapeculture:

igotpillstheyremultiplying:

fuckingrapeculture:

Is that silent bob or am I confusing things?

Yep. Kevin Smith, director of Clerks and other movies (Mallrats, etc.) He also plays Silent Bob in his own films..

Well clearly when Silent Bob decides not to be silent, he speaks gold.

Kevin Smith is a phenomenal being who stands up and speaks many truths all the time. 

Women in peril is used so often as a plot device because people are completely desensitized to men in peril.  Take a look at any action movie or television series involving character death; violence against men tends to be seen as not nearly as important.  As a result, when a writer is looking for an emotional response for the audience they opt for the gender which the audience is conditioned to feel empathy for.  That gender is not men.

Of course women in peril being a big plot point is a problem.  Making it seem even more serious, though, is like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on it..